Rees Jones Interview

Welcome to Destination Golf.My name is Simon Holt and I am not joined by Josh Stens this week.Good old Josh is up at Band and Dunes for the US Women’s AM and I’m looking forward to hearing all about that when he’s back.But we are here to listen to him because he’s done this fantastic interview with Rhys Jones, the famous golf course architect.

0:19

A very timely interview given the Ryder Cup at Bethpage Black where he has done a significant amount of work over the years, both for the US Open and like I say for this year, making a few tweaks for the Ryder Cup.Josh isn’t shy.He asks a couple of pretty direct questions and he gets some very, very straight answers.

0:37

I think you’re all going to appreciate and enjoy those.But before we dive into the interview, I’m delighted to say that this episode of Destination Golf is presented by Holdenness and Bourne, that polos are now found in over 1500 golf shops worldwide and feature that structured car that stays for a polished look, bold but refined patterns, and a signature fit that’s both sharp and comfortable.

1:00

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1:17

OK, let’s get into it.Let’s listen to Josh’s interview with Reese Jones.

1:32

Rhys Jones, thanks very much for joining us today.Where are you ringing in from?East Hampton, NY.Not a bad spot to be.No good.Good golf spot.Probably the best golf land in America.Yeah, for sure.We’ll talk about that maybe a little later when we get to some of your favorite courses.I want to hear about that.

1:47

Probably the biggest event remaining on the golf calendar, though is the Ryder Cup, of course, at Bethpage Black this year.And you’ve had a big hand in fine tuning that course over the years for big events.Talk to us a little bit if if you would, just for starters about what your involvement has been there.Well, it started back in the 1990s.

2:04

Bernadette Castro was the Parks Commissioner of state of New York, and I grew up with her.Our parents were friends, so it was a natural that I would do the job for her and David Faye, who was a very good close friend of mine.I went out with the USGA, checked the site to see if it was suitable to upgrade, to have AUS Open held there, and then everything followed from that.

2:25

I’ve had two very successful US Opens.The course famously has a warning sign by the first tee warning that it’s only for highly skilled golfers, but when the pros were coming around seemed like it was a different mandate.I’m I’m assuming your mandate was to toughen it up as hard as it was for the everyday player.Is that true?

2:40

Was it too easy for the pros when you came in?Well, not necessarily too easy.It was always a hard test because that sign really described that.Fortunately, 5 golf courses at Bethpage.So this course was the ultimate test of golf and I think that’s why it’s held up so well in major championships and why it was selected for the Ryder Cup.

3:01

It is truly a championship golf course that we did make tougher, longer, change the angles, made the shots more recoverable than a lot of little things, a lot of big things in the restoration process.What do you expect to see in this Ryder Cup?I know you’ve been on as a consultant, as the PGA of America is preparing for this event.

3:19

You’ve made some modifications as well.I mean, is the course going to be the bear that people have come to expect from US Opens in the PGA Championship, the majors that have been held?Well, Josh, as you know, they don’t set up the Ryder Cup matches necessarily to make them the most difficult.Each captain, the home captain, chooses how the course is set up.

3:39

And we still haven’t heard what Keegan Bradley actually wants to do with the height of the rough, although we’ve adjusted the fairway lines we put AT down on the first T on the left because they’re going to use the existing first T for the stands.Redid the bunker on 13.

3:54

I’ll bring you closer to the fairway and extending it farther out.And over the years we’ve made a lot of changes just to improve the golf course because it really has been very suitable for championship golf.When you talk about championship golf and you as an architect coming in to ask to make changes, do you ever feel that the purity of architecture and what you’d like to accomplish is at odds with what a championship test requires?

4:18

That’s a very good question.In this case with Best Page Black, because it is a very difficult course and people play it for that reason.We didn’t have to worry about that.However, other courses that we redo, we actually have to make it playable for the members or the public play, so we can’t overdo the difficulty.

4:36

Otherwise you really hurt the everyday player.So it’s a very fine line whether we just prepared for the championship or for everybody that plays it, and we try to make sure it’s for everyone.So at Bethpage, I mean for the average player playing it plays incredibly long.

4:52

For the pros, distance doesn’t seem to be that big of an impediment anymore.You hear that said anyway.I don’t know if you find that to be true, but what was the most important thing you had to do to make it more challenging aside from adding distance to Bethpage Black?Well, it was a very bad repair.

5:08

We had to take the trees out of the bunkers.We had to bring the bunkers in closer to the fairways.We had to take the bunkers farther down the fairways.We had to refurbish every bunker on the golf course, build the chipping areas.We had to change the fairway lines, we had to add new teas, so in the red we restored it really much.

5:27

The Tilling has had a philosophy of building a course that has elasticity, and fortunately he left.That’s the opportunity to lengthen it because it had the elasticity.I know you’ve talked about the greens too.These are not sort of everyday modern era greens that people see, right?

5:43

These are kind of old settled greens with a lot of little nuances and contours.Can you talk to us a little bit about the Greens and what makes them different at Bethpage Black from a lot of venues?Well, the beauty of the greens is that they thought that the scores would be lower than they were for the first US Open, the Tiger one, because as you just pointed out, the greens have been there forever.

6:01

They settled over the years, they settled probably, they probably buried some stumps under them.So the contours have probably changed.And so there’s little nuances, little elevation changes, things.It’s hard for them to read.In fact, I think it’s harder for the pros to read a flat green than to read an Augusta National green where whereas the contours are so evident.

6:21

So I think that they are going to miss some short putts just because they’re harder to read and because these are old greens that really haven’t been touched as far as the contours are concerned in many years.Yeah, So real, real subtlety out there.Are you going to be out watching the event?Are you going to be out rooting the Americans on or rooting against the Americans or I don’t know what, where, where your allegiances lie?

6:41

Not necessarily an American fan.Who knows?Well, people ask me that question.I’m going to be rooting for the golf course, yeah.You want to see a bloodletting?No, no, I don’t want to see a bloodletting.What I love about Bethpage Black is that no one has complained about it.All the better players in the game find it to be a fair test.

6:59

The greens are receptive, the buckers are manageable.The chipping areas work.The recovery shots work.The high grass is thin enough for them to hit hack out of it.So nobody really complaints about Bethpage Black.It’s probably the most popular championship venue in the game of golf.

7:16

Well.It wouldn’t be pro golf if somebody weren’t complaining about about something right about the course.I mean, I’m sure you’ve heard it over the years.How do you deal with when you hear a kind of criticism of a design players grousing?Do you take it as a compliment that they’re even talking about what’s been done?Oh yeah.I think that’s I’m sort of disappointed if they don’t complain.

7:33

In fact, when David Faye and I were setting up Bethpage for the first go around, we switched the par 57 to a par four.We said, oh, the pros are going to complain about this.And David said I’m glad to complain about it because then they won’t complain about the whole golf course.Get them focused on one thing.

7:49

It’s it’s a distraction game.I like it.I think I read a, I know I read a piece in Sports Illustrated years ago, a profile of your dad and your family.And I remember there was a passage in the piece that talked about your dad making these courses very hard.Some players complained and your dad just sort of shrugged it off.I think your brother wanted to kind of race to his defense and your response was similar, like just sort of let the griping go on and keep on with your work.

8:10

Is that general your philosophy to kind of not pay attention to criticism?Well, Josh, to tell you the truth, the ones that complain are the ones that don’t do very well and the ones that don’t complain like Tiger Woods.He loves my golf course.He loved Torrey Pines.He won there like 7 times.He won the US Open there and he won the farmers in the Buick there.

8:29

I mean, he praises that golf course and there’s very few people that complain about Torrey Pines.But actually you expect the complaints and you you really have have to have a response.And it’s the players that don’t play well and can’t master the design that really have the difficulty with the challenge.

8:47

It is a championship test.It’s it’s testing the best and it’s getting harder and harder to test these guys because the distance they hit the ball, too many golf courses are driver and wedge.Unlike the 12th hole at Torrey Pines.It’s over 500 yards into the wind.Fortunately that that gives them a chance to hit a mid iron into that green.

9:07

So it’s it’s crazy this game has changed so much and we have to sort of be ready for those complaints because they don’t complain.It’s really not a great test.Thinking about what is it the 4th hole at Bethpage, famous par 5 which tilling house designed with that great bunker, cross bunker.

9:22

I mean used to be really imposing that bunker, nowadays that’s a driver mid iron I would assume for the guys.That’s right, and the green is not that receptive for the long shot, but because they’re hitting a mid iron, they can get it lofted and hold that green pretty easily.Whereas when Tilling has designed it, he really wanted to hit across the cross bunker, decide to lay up short because there’s another bunker or hit to the right.

9:45

A lot of shot options and that’s what Tilling has was so good at.When was the last time you played the black?Oh, that’s a couple years ago.But I I want to tell you I did shoot 76 on an opening day, so that was one of my better rounds in golf. 13 pars and five bogeys.You didn’t quite shoot your age, but if we had given you another couple decades.

10:02

Then you would that’s.Right.I want to ask you, I mean, Bethpage is a good way to look at it, I suppose.You know, your dad was famous for making golf tougher, I think.I mean, a lot of people thought that he he started designing harder golf course.I don’t know if you would agree with that.But nowadays there’s, at least in the recreational game, there’s so much emphasis on fun and fair and fast and wide.

10:24

Where do you think we are on that line is?Is there any?Is there any chance we’ve swung too far away from Penal and made golf too friendly?Is there even such a thing?Oh, I don’t think they’re making it too friendly because they’re taking out the trees and and putting high fescue grass in there.And when you’re in that grass you don’t have much of a chance.

10:41

So they’re doing different things and, and the modern architect is doing a very good job with contouring the greens in dramatic fashions.So they’re probably more contoured now than they were 20 years ago.So they’re they’re doing different things even though they’re making them wider than they were in the past.

10:58

But for championship golf, I think you’re going to see them going back to the Oakmont setup, the narrower fairways, the primary rough and then the secondary rough.Yeah.I mean, obviously when when there’s trying to defend these old courses, that often comes into the question it does the setup have to become tricked up to defend it.How do you how do you maintain the the purity of the design?

11:15

Now, I assume you thought Oakmont did a pretty good job of that, whereas maybe some of the other Golden Age courses that have held majors in recent years came under more criticism.Well, Oakmont was just like Bethpage Black.It was, it’s a, it’s a hard golf course, probably the toughest course on the USGA rotation.

11:31

So they just sort of followed suit and made it a little bit tougher and that’s what the members wanted.So I think it was very appropriate.Other courses like marrying, you sort of have to rig those because they can’t, they can never get the length for today’s players.

11:47

So they they moved the fairways, they narrowed the shots, they changed the angles into the fairways.They did things that made it hold up.And so are you in favor of, you know, even if of course needs to be, you said rigged.Are you in favor of bringing a championship to a venue like that that requires rigging?

12:03

Well, I don’t know if it would use the word rigged just because basically the USGA and the PGA control the setup.We control the design, but we don’t control the setup or the fairway lines or the rough heights or even the angles.We we don’t control that.

12:19

That’s that’s not our purview.Sure, sure.Well, you know, we talked a little bit about your dad.You obviously grew up in a house with one of the most famous architects of all time.How old were you when you realized your dad was who he was?That you’re in this world of golf, Renowned.

12:35

Well, in those days, a lot of the golf writers would come to our house and like Herb Wind was a very close friend of ours.He came off and because he did a profile in The New Yorker magazine on my dad, Charlie Price was at the house a lot.And a lot of the golf writers would come visit dad because he was like the preeminent architect of the time and they had a lot of good ideas.

12:53

The golf writers actually contributed to some degree to a lot of my father’s thinking, which was very helpful and and they could evaluate the course designs, especially when he was doing all the US Opens over.I realized that I was in a family that was subject to scrutiny as far as golf is concerned.

13:11

When I read the the articles, which some were positive, some were negative regarding what my father had done.Oakland Hills was like the first time the USGA for a championship really made it so it was a tougher test to golf.And the one thing I remember about Oakland Hills is my father converted the par 518th to a par 4.

13:32

Ben Hogan complained that moved the T up three TS, and he complained how hard it was.My father said, no, no, I made it easier.Yeah, it’s the lowest.It’s the lowest total score that wins the US Open, right, Ben?Yeah, that’s right.He said, well, I made it easier.If you have a lower total score, forget about the bar.

13:50

And that’s where, famously, Hogan later said he was relieved to have brought that monster to its knees, right?I mean.He said that to my mother.He said it to your mother directly.I didn’t know that.Well, my mother always followed the final round and it wasn’t as crowded then.I think at Oakland Hills they didn’t even have ropes.

14:06

But he saw my mother in the crowd and knew my mother very well.He came off the 18th screen after he shot 78.He was one of only two players that shot under par at Oakland Hills.And he said, Missus Jones, if your husband had to play.And my mother said, oh, Ben, I’m so proud of you.

14:23

I’m so pleased for you.What a great round of golf.I really enjoyed watching it.And he said, Missus Jones, if your husband had to play his courses for a living, you being the bread line.You mentioned that writers had input with your dad and some of them had influenced some of his decisions.

14:40

Can you tell me a little bit about that?What was an example of how a writer changed your dad’s thinking or shaped it?Well, not just that.The writers were very golf knowledgeable.Most of them were golfers.Michael Bamberg and I are very good friends.You know, we talked back and forth on golf course architecture and you guys really know the game, especially if you’re doing championship golf courses.

15:00

They’re going to evaluate the golf course.And then they asked my father.They asked me questions because where the people redoing them and it’s a very valuable input to get from the Golf Riders because they’re knowledgeable observers of the game of golf and how it’s played.

15:16

That’s why I think the Golf Rider has always been very instrumental with me.I used to go to the Golf Riders function at Myrtle Beach all the time, got to know a lot of them, got to be good friends of them, would travel with them at times and go around different golf courses.And just the input I got from them was very valuable for me because there’s no point in listening to somebody that really has never thought about architecture, but they they all have and it’s very valuable.

15:42

Did did anybody, Bamberg or anybody else, ever say something to you that had a tangible effect on one of your designs?Oh yeah, and like David Faye, it’s had a lot to do with Vinnie Giles.I play a lot of golf with Vinnie Giles.US Amateur British Amateur champion Senior Amateur champion, Walker Cup player.

15:59

He led the Masters in the fourth round at one time, but he says that’s before the leaders teed off.What have those folks said to you that has changed?Your thinking, well I play a lot of golf with them and it’s just the mainly about the recovery shot.

16:17

The recovery shot is really important in the game of golf because people miss the targets so often.You have to give them the recovery.You don’t want to take that recovery opportunity away.You don’t want to have these sandscapes that you get in them and you have no shot.Yeah, basically.

16:33

And I think that’s what I learned mostly from the good players.Make sure the bunkers release to the center.Make sure the bunkers are pitched uphill.Make sure that the back of the bunker isn’t too steep so you can’t take your club back.Those are little things that are very helpful.

16:49

The good player can tell you and I’ve played and I’ve been, I even won a tournament with, with Vinny as my partner.So and I would always play better with Vinny because I would just summon myself and try to be as good as he was.

17:04

But I never could.But I I did one win, one match.When the Mike Tiernan says Vinny didn’t beat us, Rhys Jones didn’t.I thought, you know, he continues to say that.And it makes me feel good because I did play well that day.You guys are a formidable pair, it sounds like.

17:20

So did you have it in your mind at a pretty young age that this is what you wanted to do?No, my mom really didn’t want me to think that way.It’s a tough business.You have to keep selling.It’s all it’s You travel, you’re away from the family a lot.I don’t think the golfers really appreciate what a golf course architect does to make their life more enjoyable as far as being away from family and traveling as much as we do.

17:43

And she wanted me to go to college, take a liberal arts education and then decide while I was there.So I didn’t really decide that I wanted to follow my father’s footsteps till my junior year in college.And was there a specific moment you recall where you said, aha, this is what I’m going to do?Well, a lot of youngsters really followed their father’s footsteps at that time and I just think I was so exposed to it and enjoyed it.

18:05

I enjoyed the people in it.That’s the one my mother used to say is the the greatest profession for people.We get to hang around and be with some of the most enjoyable people in the world because golf is this common denominator and it brings us all together and we really have a a stake in it.

18:21

So I think that’s partly why I was drawn to it, just because of the people I met through my family.And so, you know, you got into the business.I know your, your brother had your dad’s name for marketing purposes.That was probably helpful.You did not.You had the last name, but not, you were not a, a junior.

18:37

What was it like trying to break in?And, and I’m just wondering, like you’re, you’re trying to establish your own name.You’re also coming from a family of great pedigree.To what extent did you lean into your identity as a Jones?And to what extent were you trying to say, Hey, I’m my own guy.I’m not just following in my father’s footsteps.

18:53

Well, I had to, I had 10 years with my dad.And so I met a lot of people in the game of golf.And when I went out on my own in 1974, it was a slow down in the economy.And so I was able to get the word out that I was on my own when the economy came back.And then I was hired for some small projects, remodeling projects, a new job in in the tri-cities, Tennessee, and then a lot of a lot of course in Hilton Head Island.

19:20

And then I got the Brookline job for the US Open and that was very helpful and sort of catapulted in my career.And is that the beginning of you as the sort of open doctor too?Well, yeah, I had to keep getting more of them.But as I was successful and as my courses were well received and the clients were happy and the USGA and the PGA were happy, kept getting more and more projects for championship golf.

19:42

And then I branched out and got got Royal Montreal, which had the Canadian Open.I Barack, he was head of the Japanese Open, so I’ve sort of become the open doctor for not just the USA but other countries.Were you on the road?I mean, your dad famously said, you know, that his son never sets on a Robert Trent Jones course.

20:00

He flew more miles than most airline pilots.Did you travel to that extent when you were kind of in your bustling prime?No, I travelled less.In fact I worked very hard not to do that.I wanted to be part of my family’s upbringing and I just wanted my, my daughters have a father at home at times.

20:17

So I really tried to keep my jobs as close as I could to my home.And then that meant sort of staying with inside the the United States.And then after the kids grew up, I branched out, started going to the British Isles and and Spain and South America and and Japan and South Korea.

20:37

I know that your father was gone a lot.I mean, without turning this into a psychiatry session, did you sense his absence as a kid and what impact you feel like that had and how you you grew up?Well, yeah, I sensed it.But don’t forget, every father was sort of a way not if they weren’t traveling, they were dedicated to their jobs.

20:55

Because we’re just coming out of the Depression, out of the Second World War.This is an opportunity for make making up for lost time.So I think that’s what my dad did, and most people in the professional world did.So a lot of us in our generation did not have as much fathering as other generations because of that.

21:12

I guess I sensed it.And we had one car at the time because we didn’t have much money.We always were glad when he didn’t take the car.Interesting.So wait, so your dad, you didn’t have much money your dad wasn’t wasn’t killing it out there.I would assume that he.

21:28

Was he was?Yeah.But he just came out of the precious Second World War golf course.Architecture was not that lucrative.It was a sort of a new burgeoning business.And my father, Robert Trenches, was the first one that really stamped the name on it and really made people more aware of the telling Hanson, the Ross’s and the Mackenzie’s.

21:46

Before that, people really want to talk about who the architect was.And so once he did that, and once other architects became more renowned, the fees increased.But in the beginning it was a very modest income profession.One car family, just like sports writers.

22:02

It’s good to know you guys.We’re all, it’s something we all have in common.So your, your, your dad is often sort of, I mean, I, I think of him as being sort of ushering in the, what people call the modern era of architecture.I don’t know if you would think that to be a fair assessment.The sort of link between the Golden Age and what came next is, is that a fairway to think of him?

22:21

That’s what they say.Who knows?He really cared about the the playability, cared about the green surfaces and I think his green services, if you look at them all, they’re priced amongst the best in the game.I think that he probably emphasize length, which is maybe why he gets that reputation to bring into the modern world, because the ball was starting to go farther than and he was worried about it because the ball had changed and the shafts had gone from wooden shafts to steel shafts.

22:50

Yeah, he was worried about length, as everybody was at that time.So I think maybe that’s why it gets ushered in the modern year of architecture.But as far as the style, you take a Peachtree, I mean, it stood the test of time.And I just visited down there and what a piece of land that property has, and nobody knows much about it because it’s so private and hard to access.

23:10

But you talk about classic design.That’s one of them.Yeah, that’s one that always gets raves among our Raiders who get who get a chance to see it.I I know it’s really high regarded I think in the southeast of the the Dunes Club in Myrtle Beach with your dad out of hand.And I think is a terrific course as well.Very classical in that sense, no?

23:26

Well, yeah, I’ve done a lot of work at the Dunes Club.I’ve been their architect for the last 25 years and it is an unbelievable test to go off to the elevated greens and that time Augusta National was the model.So you have elevated greens and you have the tree lined fairways.It was really a a Parkland golf course on a coastal site today.

23:44

It stood the test of time.Fox, who just won the Canadian Open and the guy that just won the the Scottish Open, both won the tournaments at the Dunes Club, the the those PGA events that oh.Is that right?I didn’t know gutter up at 1:00 there too.Yeah, gutter up the two.Those are two champions.

24:00

So it does test the best and it crowns the best.So the Dunes Club definitely should be a Top 100 golf course because it’s that good.So how do you compare and contrast your style with that of your father’s?I mean, do you feel like, is that even a useful exercise?Are you similar?

24:16

More similar than you are different?Well, every architect sort of changed his style throughout his career.He also designs for the essence of the project.I mean, if I’m doing AUS opener or PGA or Ryder Cup, I have one assignment.If I’m building a course for the everyday player and a public golf course, I have another assignment.

24:36

So I think to some degree I’m more into shot options.I’m into more open entrance screens than my dad was.He was into protecting the green in the front.I’m more protecting the green in the back with the contour change because the ball is now flying higher and the penalty is much greater if you go over the green.

24:54

They go shorter in a in a greenside bunker.So I think my my design size evolved.He was really copying the Augusta National model more on a lot of his golf courses.Other architects still copy the Augusta National model with the elevated greens.

25:10

I like a lot of the low profile greens because that gives the everyday player, the lower, the higher handicapper and the the women a better chance of rolling the ball on the green.So I like courses that really have the shot options of playing the ground game as well as the aerial game.

25:25

You mentioned earlier that we talked briefly about sort of the where design is heading now.I mean, how would you characterize the state of design today, the trends where things are going and are you happy about the way things are in golf design in general?Well, I don’t have to be happy, but I, I what’s?

25:41

Your take on it?The beauty of golf course design is there’s no set rules and the beauty of golf course design is styles change.Pete Dye started putting in pot bunkers and every everybody, including me, started using pot bunkers.

25:57

Jack Nicholas built Loxahatchee and Grand Cypress.That got the attention of the golfing world with a lot of mounds.So then people started building a lot of mounds.Telling has to McKenzie build sculptured bunkers.Those are really windswept bunkers.If you think of how they came, they evolved and everybody sort of used that, and now everybody’s using these sand bracketed fairways like pioneers #2 and.

26:21

Native waste.Sandy wastes.And that’s right.And they’re all, most of the successful architects right now are using that mode to sort of frame the holes, identify the holes and really test it.And I think even though the fairways are wider, even though the greens may not be as closely bunkered, I think it’s a more of a penal style they’re into right now than a strategic style, which really was more in vogue maybe 10-15 years ago.

26:51

That’s interesting.So more penal now than it was because you hear so much these days about making courses player friendly, especially the big name sort of resort courses that are opening.It’s all about wide and, you know, find your ball and just generally making it easier on the player.But that’s interesting to hear that take.

27:06

Can you explain, elaborate a little bit more about why you find that’s more penal?The bunkers are more ragged.The bunkers are deeper.The bunkers, they don’t release to the center as much.They’re more natural.The everyday golfer hates sand, OK?

27:22

They don’t hit a bunker shot.They don’t know how to accelerate through the shot.They try to ease it out or direct it out.They just don’t.The good player bunkers, really no challenge to them.They’ve got that down.That’s why my father really introduced the 16th hold Augusta National, put the pond in on #11 at Augusta National, because he didn’t think the bunkers were enough of a challenge for the better players.

27:44

So he started introducing water and we introduced a lot more water over the years, partly because we were building golf courses on lower land that the developer really didn’t want to use for his housing.But I, I think that right now you’ll find that with taking out the trees and putting in fescue grass that you can hardly find the ball and then you definitely can’t hit it effectively.

28:06

And even if you watched there in LA, they had the fescue so close at the US Open that, you know, Rory almost lifted on one shot, if you remember that.Yeah.So I think the high fescue grass has made it more penal.That’s interesting.I know that you’re still a big name in the game, but as taste change, how hard is that to you for you to kind of recalibrate your position or where do you see your standing in the game and how do you look at it?

28:31

And is it harder to accept changing taste or do you feel like you’re part of the changing tastes?I hope you understand that question sort of rambling.Yeah, that’s OK.What what goes around comes around though.I mean, what what you mainly want to do and I don’t doesn’t matter what the style is.I think the wide fairways are very popular with the average golfer.

28:49

I mean, the average golfer loves the fact he’s not in the rough.The what I meant by piano, when they get in the high fescue grass or they get any natural waste areas, that’s when the average golfer is befuddled and really doesn’t even have the shot and then his scores go up.So I think as long as the architect builds a course that people like, and I think the wide fairways is helping that, I think they’re going to succeed.

29:14

And that’s all you’re really trying to do.I mean, one of my greatest combine jobs is the Breakers in Palm Beach.I designed the Ocean Course, which is not a small amount of acreage.It’s a short course.But I built some of the greatest green complexes you’ve ever seen.And people love it.

29:29

And the best players the game love it.I took Vinnie Giles out there and sit her off.And these are US amateur, British amateur champions.And they they played very well and loved it.And I did the Breakers Reese Jones course out West and they play tour qualifying.So they’ve got like the best combination of golf courses just for everybody that I’ve been involved with.

29:50

So I, I think that and you don’t hear about the Breakers as a golfing resort because it has so much more to offer.But I think when people go that those golf courses are completely full and they can charge a lot of money because they’re so popular.And that’s that’s the one thing I think I’ve accomplished there.

30:08

So do you feel, you know, as tastes change, every architect has work tweaked over time and sometimes other designers are brought in?When you see one of your jobs get subject to a renovation or a restoration by another architect, how does that sit with you?Is that hard to take or do you just take that as part of the game?

30:26

I did it myself.I, you know, so I mean, I knew it was coming.And how it works is if, if somebody knows another architect or if they have a relationship with them, or if they, that other architect worked on their home club and then they have a project, they’ve got a natural affinity for that person.

30:44

And so, and I don’t think the client really makes a distinction about what we can accomplish for them.So it’s going to happen.People are going to come in and redo your golf courses, especially of course, that have been redone over and over again, like Eastlake has been redone since I’ve done it.

31:01

And I think they like my my design better than they like the present one.But I think that’s just a natural because Eastlake has been changed and changed and changed over the years.And I I think it’ll be continually changed.Interesting.So nowadays almost every press release I get is either for a municipal course renovation or tweak or a super high end Golf Club.

31:22

You know, there’s a lot of very high end private and I’m wondering, I know golf has always had these two extremes, the municipal level and and elite private golf.It feels like the divide is greater than it’s ever been with less in the middle than there ever was.But I’d be curious to get your your take on things.Agree with you 100%.

31:38

I’m a little worried about the cost of the game because I think we need the entry level players and if it’s even the public sector, if it’s too expensive, they’re not going to be able to get out there and play that often to improve their game and enjoy it and have it as a lifetime experience.

31:55

So I think that’s why the municipal golf courses, that’s why the Torrey Pines and the Bethpages and Bayou Oaks and the Carika parks and the Bryant parks are so important because they’re municipally owned and they the price point is very, very low.

32:11

We need more of those golf courses for the future of the game.You mentioned Karika Park, that’s actually my home course.The work you did out there on the South course has changed my golfing life.Honestly, it’s like having a little Country Club in my backyard with perfect.The agronomy there is so good and it’s such a fun course to play.And I have to ask because it’s the elephant in your room.

32:28

Your brother is just finished the restoration of the neighboring course, the North course.Do you talk much with him?I mean a lot has been written over the years.What’s your guys relationship like these days?Yeah, we really don’t have a relationship, but I’m, I’m very pleased that he got that job because it’s the only side by side Rhys Jones, Robert Trent Jones Golf Course and that’s that’s why they selected him for the second one.

32:51

And I’m very pleased with that because I think it’s a good, I think there’ll be no other family quite like ours.The father being that successful and the both boys actually that’s a hard thing to do as a follow up successful father, number one in the profession and be successful yourself.My brother and I have both accomplished that and I think I’m very pleased about that.

33:10

Any of your kids ever express any interest in golf design?Well, I have a college professor daughter and I have a social worker, so they’re doing more for, for the humanity than I am.But I think I do a lot for people’s happiness.But no, I, they, they, neither one of them wanted to go into the business.

33:27

If you hadn’t gone into architecture, what what do you think you’d be doing?That’s, that’s a good question.I I probably would have been a lawyer and probably been miserable.Because all lawyers, right?Well, it’s this.Yeah, who knows?But being a lawyer, you’re always doing something for somebody else instead of yourself.

33:46

When you design A golf course, especially a new one, a lot of it is your own energy, your own thought process, your own philosophy.People keep asking me, you know, are you are you excited about it opening?I said no.I said now that it’s open, it’s no longer mine.

34:02

So once it opens, it’s the owner or it’s the club or it’s the public entity.Then the course changes or they make modifications.So I think while I’m doing it, it’s the process is so much fun.It’s very enjoyable.You’re working with some really great people, especially a new Golf course.

34:19

It evolves.It just evolves.You start with a routing, then you confirm the routing, you may change the routing, then you start building it.Holes evolve and you have to change your original approach.And I started restoration at the Country Club Brookline, and we really restored it back to holes we’ve seen on paper and we can actually tell where the old moguls were and the mounds were and the size of the greens.

34:42

But building a golf course, just you have your personality and I let my clients voice their opinions and so it becomes a team, team effort.My associates are the Co designers, the shapers help us out.It’s just a great group of people working together to create something that’s very special for the people that ultimately get a chance to play it.

35:03

Then when you redo a golf course, it’s easier kind of to see what you have to do right away because it’s all open.And so those are easier golf courses to to have your ideas initially, but when you’re starting from scratch, you’re really, really the course evolves and you have to know what you’re doing.

35:20

You have to know what you’re looking at.You have to know how to play the game.And I think it helps to be a single digit handicapper rather than a great player or a poor player.If you’re a single digit handicapper, you’re not going to hit the bad shots and the good shots.And I think that really helps to be a golf course architect.

35:35

Interesting.So that’s the sweet spot.Single digit index not not a, not a + 5, and not an 18 either.I think that’s it, yeah.Interesting.Do you think the same is true evaluating a golf course or being a course Raider?Should you be able to play to a certain standard?That’s a good question.I actually think probably helps to have some higher handicappers on those lists.

35:55

Don’t forget that there are fewer good players than there are bad players.I mean, like Cyprus Point is just a phenomenal golf course.I think if the pros went out there, they probably shoot in the low 60s, but it’s a great golf course.It doesn’t have to be brutal to be on that list.I think Cyprus Point is not Brutus on this.

36:13

I think it’s always been on that list, but that’s the type of golf course I would like to see on those lists more than the real penal ones that really can’t be played by some of the players.A successful golf course is a golf course that can be played in different fashions on the ground, on the air, shot options that anybody can accomplish their goal, whether they’re 100 shooter, a 90 shooter, or a subpar shooter.

36:37

They can they can accomplish their goal.They You don’t want to put somebody on a golf course where they know they’re dead before they start.I’ve heard people say that some of our Raiders, in fact, tell me that’s why they don’t think Pine Valley should be ranked #1 because not enough people can play it because it’s just too hard for some players.

36:54

I disagree totally.I think Pine Valley very easy driving course you can let out shaft at Pine Valley easily.So if you do that and you get close to the the hardest hole is the shortest hole, the 8th hole because of the green.You can’t go right and recover.

37:09

You can’t go left and recover.You can’t go over recover.It’s almost like you should just dump in the front bunker and hit the bunker shot and you know get out of town as long as you have.I’m looking at Pine valley.It’s I’ve always played pretty well there.There’s courses if you play the right tee, they’re going to be hard from the back and if you’re in the right tee, they’re not that hard for you.

37:30

And that’s that’s the accomplishment you want to have.So how much golf are you playing these days?I play a little a lot at 3 Ponds Farm, which is a private course across from Atlantic, and I play a lot at Maidstone.But I’m not I’m I just, I don’t know what to buy.

37:46

The ball gets up there.It looks good, and then it comes down faster than it used to, so you have a longer shot in.Now you are.You are how old now you are just past 80, right?Am I?I’m so old I can’t remember.Can you shoot your age now?Oh, yeah.

38:02

Well, so you went.You went into this career, you’ve had decades at it.It seems to me I’ve never met an architect who just retires.Is that true, that you guys are like old soldiers?You don’t retire.You don’t.You never.You never.It just sort of ease into a transition to a new phase of your careers.Well, people asked me when are you going to retire?

38:19

I said, all my friends that are retired, they go into they, they go into painting to have their art.I already, I already have my art.So I don’t need to retire because I’m I’m still doing my artistry.But old golf course architects never die.They just fade away.How often or how active are you when trying to drum up work?

38:35

I mean, do you and how busy are you?Do you, do you seek out work?Is the phone ringing?Are you asking for work?We’re doing fine.We got a lot of really good jobs right now and I was very fortunate to do the Macklemore project with Bill Bergen.That’s that’s a site that really had to be a golf course and it turned out very it.

38:56

Looks amazingly dramatic.I’ve seen the photos.I haven’t been out there yet.Can you tell people a little bit about Macklemore?Briefly talk to me about what?It looks like the guy named Dwayne Horton started it and it’s on, It’s on lookout, man.It’s right on the cliffs.It’s it’s like a Pebble Beach with a valley instead of an ocean.

39:12

And it has rock outcrops and it has wetlands that we incorporated into the design and a lot of open entrance screens, a lot of one blind part 5, a little bit of water splattered in here and there.And it finishes right on the cliffs.

39:28

It’s, and it’s one of those golf courses which is magical and captures everybody’s attention and, and it’s enjoyable to play if you pick the right TS.So it, it works very well for every caliber player.And it’s it’s been fun because the people there have been so wonderful to work with.

39:45

So how many projects do you have going at any one time, generally?Well, we never know because we never know when they’re going to start.But and then we never know we’re getting approved.We’re about to start one in Puerto Rico that we’ve been working on for 2 1/2 years to get the approvals.And we got one in Central America.

40:02

We’re doing one in Sao Paulo, Brazil.But we never know when they’re going to start.That’s the real problem.Tom Doak once said that, Rhys Jones said.And I’d like to follow this, he said.I’d like to just do two or three jobs and just immerse myself in it, but you can’t do that because you never know when they’re going to actually go.

40:19

Interesting.That’s that was your that was your mantra at one point.You’d like to do 2 a year?Well, no, I would say that, but I mean I’ve got 3 designers that are very accomplished and been with me for years, but we don’t want too much work because then you can’t really attend to it and you need to attend to the projects in the field.

40:37

If you don’t attend to them in the field, a lot of the nuances will get lost.Yeah, I mean, I suppose there’s a point where you get too busy.And I know there’s been some grumbling these days that some designers are so busy, how could they possibly be out there doing all their jobs?Do you see any of that in the industry today?Well, there has been that grumbling and but if they have good associates like Fazio and I have had over the years, that’s not a problem because my associates and his associates are just like Co designers.

41:03

So it works out very well.So I I don’t think people should grumble if if those architects have have bona fide good associates.Is there a younger architect today you most admire?I think Bill Bergen, who I worked with and I’ve gotten to know him on 2 projects, he was a pro on the tour.

41:19

He’s very adept with the computer.He’s very adept in the field.He knows the game.So I would say there’s somebody I’ve gotten to know quite well and he’s a really fine human being.He’s one of the top.The rankings are something that like architectural tastes and trends change over time.

41:36

These days, any course that you think has gotten overlooked, fallen out of favor that you think deserves more attention, and any course that you think is overrated.I’m curious.Basically the question is overrated and underrated or overlooked or underlooked?Well, I don’t think much of the ratings tell.Me.Why?Well, I mean, if you think about it like, I don’t know about Golf magazine, but if you count the numbers that have been top 100 courses, it’s almost to 1000, OK?

42:02

I think Golf Digest is like 800 and something.It’s almost like any kind of rating.It’s like college ratings, they never seem to change the top courses and the top schools are always the same.And, and I don’t think that see what one person loves about a golf course, another person doesn’t love it.

42:20

And, and if you look at the rating that Lynx magazine did, it’s far cry from the other ratings.So I mean, there’s a lot of great golf courses around there.I mean, I’m glad that Digest went to 200 courses because at least some of the courses get cited.

42:37

But the ratings are really hard to understand sometimes.Because I think to some degree what’s happened to the ratings now is if you have the style that’s in vogue, the old styles golf courses get lost.They just go for the new style.Or if a golf course had a reputation for years, they stick with her if it’s very difficult.

42:58

Courses that really hard to play get rated highly, but they’re not successful financially.So the ratings are more for the magazine than they are for the golf course architect.I think at one point you were a panelist, a course rater for Golf Magazine, am I right?I started the whole list for Golf Magazine.

43:14

Oh, pardon me.So what prompt was it?Was it, was it this sort of view you have of the rankings in general that prompted you to get out of it?Well, when I was the president of the American Society Golf Course Architects, I went to George Pepper and he was the editor of Golf magazine at the time.

43:30

I said, you know, Golf Digest has the top 100 list in US.You want to start a top 100 list in in the world and he thought it was a great idea.So I’m the one that came up with the idea.And that’s how Golf magazine got into it.Then Golf Digest decided to jump on having one in the world too.

43:49

And then Golf Magazine then countered by getting one in the country.But Golf Magazine was the first one that had the top of the world list.And it was really done by a small group of pretty knowledgeable people in the game of golf.And so it was pretty effective and, and, and quite good.

44:05

Right now, I think the golf magazine list is, is more effective because it has more knowledgeable panelists.The golf Digest list has like 2000 people and they’re pay for play.They have to pay to become a panelist.So I just think that the people that are marking the ballots are not as well informed as they they were in the past.

44:26

And shortly after, I mean, I think it was in the early 80s that Tom Doke came on board as well as I recall.Am I right in remembering that, that, so I didn’t know that your involvement early on and then Doke came in with some suggestions of his own.Were you guys, did you guys overlap there and?No, he really, I never ran the panel.

44:42

He ran the panel for a while.OK, so you’re talking strictly about the concept of the list itself.The concept.Yeah, the concept.Interesting.Do you feel like looking back now, did you, were you guys sort of creating a monster you didn’t know was going to grow as big as it did?Now the good thing about the list, it creates conversation and it helps the golf architecture field because people start to understand who did this course and who did that course.

45:07

So there are positives.It’s just that, you know, I think there there’s an old story about a guy from that I love to tell.He was worked for the National Golf Foundation and he went to a funeral in Iowa, but he had to lay over and he couldn’t get a flight out of this small town in Iowa until the evening.

45:24

There’s a golf course next door.So he went and borrowed a set of clubs.He caught up with an 80 year old guy and played nine holes with him.And he said this is the worst golf course I’ve ever played in my life.And the 80 year old guy said I don’t want to play with you anymore.Well, he says, he said, this is my favorite place in the world.

45:42

He said, I lost my wife.This is where I meet my friends.This is where I have the most enjoyable time.I have a daily time here.Oh, I just love it being here.So please just go away.I don’t want to talk to you anymore.And he wrote an article about it, saying it doesn’t have to be a perfect facility.

45:58

It doesn’t have to be a perfect golf course.It has to have some raggedness and some flaws.But if it if it enhances people’s lives and gives them a sport for a lifetime, it doesn’t really matter if it’s perfection or if it’s just an old style golf course in the country.

46:14

So I think that I’ve really thought about that all my life.And to some degree, I think some of the better golf courses you’ll play like in Maine, they’re ragged and not well kept, but they people up there in Maine love them more than anything because they’re out in the fresh air and warm weather at times.

46:31

So it’s great.Speaking of courses like that, is there, is there anyone for you that really does that?I mean, you’re a member at some private clubs, obviously they’re very special, highly ranked clubs, immaculately conditioned I’d assume.But are there those raggedy courses that really just where you found community as well that just really check all those boxes?

46:50

Well, I wouldn’t call him raggedy.If I did that, I’d be in trouble, OK?Sorry.OK, rustic.Well, what the beauty of being a golf course architect, the guy that taught me how to build golf course in Bilbold and he says that your measure of success is when you go back to the club, they’re happy to see you.

47:08

And I think that’s what makes it so great for those of us that create golf courses.When we go back and they love what we did, then we know we were successful.And places like Nantucket or Atlantic or Red Stick, you know, I go there often and I, I get such great feedback.

47:25

It makes me feel very good for what I accomplished.Yeah, you mentioned that it’s kind of tough when you’re done with the job.But then I guess that’s the other part of the gratification coming back later and being welcomed.But but since you’ve mentioned that, I have to ask the flip side, Reese, are there any courses you show up and they say get out of here, Jones, we don’t want to see you anymore.

47:41

I wouldn’t go there if that were the case.How do you know before you show up?Well, don’t forget what I said earlier in this interview is that what one person loves, another person doesn’t, you know, So it’s golf course.

47:56

Depending your your abilities evokes a different emotion from 1 caliber player versus another caliber player.You don’t expect everybody to love your golf courses.A cousin of mine who was a fairly big name chef at one point in New York used to tell me that, you know, if you listen to the good things people said about you’d have to listen to the bad things.

48:16

So he chooses to ignore them all.I don’t know if that you found that to be a healthy, healthy approach in your professional life.I think what golf does see, golf has changed now since COVID.Golf used to be a competitive sport.It used to be you cared about your score.We’re getting so many golfers now in the game that have understood you get away from your iPhone, you get away from your computer, you can hang out with your friends and talk to them.

48:40

It it’s more, it’s become more of a social game now than it was before COVID.COVID really brought about a whole new element of golfers.And they don’t have to be proficient.What they really love is hitting home runs.They love hitting that driver and they’re going to buy driver after driver.

48:57

If they hit home run, they don’t care what their score is.But when they hit those home runs, they’re happy.And also the military guys, the the wounded warriors, I’ve done a couple of projects in Iowa where we really have done a lot for the Wounded Warriors.Just the impact of the ball to the club and the sound for those wounded warriors brings them back to life.

49:18

And it really has done a lot for them.And they don’t have to be that accomplished.They don’t have to make pars.They just like to be able to make contact.And I think that making the contact on a golf course and, and you’re playing a lot of shots and maybe half of them are good, maybe a third of their good, maybe a few of them are good.

49:38

But when you hit that good shot, I don’t care what caliber player you are, you get a sense of accomplishment.And golf does a lot for people that aren’t that accomplished today, which wasn’t the case before COVID.I’m a living example of that.I’m still waiting to hit that very good shot that’ll bring me back, but I keep going and search for it.

49:56

I don’t believe that.I think every once in awhile and then you hit that shot.I don’t remember that what I do.The constant search.I went out, my granddaughter played golf with my granddaughter’s college kids.And then I’m, you know, quite a bit older than them now at 3 Ponds Farm.

50:16

And I got up, teed it up, whacked it right down the middle.I mean, passed the mall.Nice.Yeah, you teach those kids a lesson.Reason.Well, it’s owned by a guy named Ivan Kaufman and who loves the game of golf.

50:32

Member of a lot of really good clubs, and he’s a great guy.It was, it was built by a guy named Ed Gordon, across the street from Atlantic, which is one of my favorite places.And we used to have lunch.You have hot dogs and olives every lunchtime with Ed and I want to build a few holes.

50:49

So then I saw about nine holes and so we built these crisscrossing fairways and greens that hit from different angles and he what he expanded to 18.We’ve large the greens.Then Ivan has built 18 true holes.Now I’ve been working there the last five years since he bought the property and expanded it and made it.

51:08

And it’s one of those places that tells you what golf is all about.When you’re on that piece of property, you’re away from all the troubles you have had.You escape the travails of of the world and it’s peaceful and there’s no one bothering you because you’re really basically the only group out there.

51:25

Maybe two or three groups or maybe just one group.And it’s, it’s like the most peaceful golf you’ll ever play.And Ivan is a wonderful guy that loves it.And he invites his friends.And everybody that goes there is kind of blown away.They never expected.I mean, Ed Gordon used to invite all his business sources.

51:43

He invited Donald Trump to come this back in the 90s.Ed, do I need to bring to more than my wedge?And it says, yeah, I think you need to bring your whole bag, Donald.So he brought us whole.And so is this by invite only?

51:58

You have to know somebody to get on.Can anybody play?Yeah, no, you have to know the owner.Yeah, that’s right.Very, very few people have played it.I did it in 1996 and it’s, I don’t know, there haven’t been many people that played it since then.Do you mind if I keep your your contact in my phone, Reese, Just in case I ever make it out to Long Island?

52:15

That sounds like a cool spot.I can get you on.That’s not the reason I asked you on this show, but I I appreciate that.But.I might have to be with you.Sounds good.So the we’re talking about community, obviously.Bethpage is, of course, as we showcase in a video that Connor, our producer, was part of, focusing on Long Island on the road to Bethpage Black and the Ryder Cup.

52:36

Huge sense of community out at that course.When you go out to the Ryder Cup this year, is there one part of the property you plan to camp out?Any place you’re most excited to watch the guys go at it?Well, the beauty I think of continuous 18 Bethpage is it it’s going to the crowd is it’s going to be a big crowd because Bethpage can accommodate a lot of people.

52:59

But since it doesn’t have returning nines, the crowd is going to be way, you know, extended.You won’t be bunched together.They won’t be going out and coming back and going out and coming back.So if you go out to the end of the golf course, the 910-1112, you’re going to see a lot of golf because when when Medina that was the case, when you went out to the end of the golf course, you could see all the matches.

53:22

It was very effective.So that’s one recommendation I would make to the play people that are attending the Ryder Cup go all the way out to the end of the golf course.You’ll see a lot more golf that way.But I, I think what I the beauty of Bethpage is that it’s got an ebb and flow to it.

53:38

You really get off in a pretty easy fashion, except for the third holes.Now really very, very good diagonal green Part 3.But the 4th hole is, is gettable now birdieable because it’s, it’s the ball is going so much farther. 5 is a tough hole, then 6 is a birdie hole, 7’s a tough hole, 8’s birdie hole anywhere.

54:00

Then 910-1112 are going to be hard 13’s birdie bowl, 14 is easy, 15’s hard 1617 are swing holes and then 18 is a birdie hole.So a lot, a lot can go back and forth.And so there’s a lot to see.Yeah, it’s going to be a great match play venue.

54:16

It’s going to be interesting to see how it compares to how it’s played in the major championships that have been held there for sure.Well, since you like to accentuate the positive, why don’t we end with asking you?We do a a sequence called a segment called Dream Foursomes.We asked ask our guests to talk about a favorite 4 things.

54:33

I have to ask you your favorite 4 courses.I’m sure you’ve been asked this a lot, but what are your four favorite courses?I don’t, I, I can’t answer that.I never.You can’t.Answer that.I cannot answer it.And you know, every, everyone has a great, just like the story I told you about the Iowa course.

54:49

I mean, the beauty of this game is that everybody has a different opinion of different courses and one course resonates with one guy and doesn’t resonate with the other.It’s a continuing challenge.And as long as we build different golf courses and different styles and different sites, it’s, it’s a lifetime pursuit.

55:06

And then you move and you go to different towns and different people in different countries.I mean, golf gives you an opportunity to travel the world with a purpose and really indulge yourself in other people’s lives and other people’s cultures.I mean, this isn’t just a game.This is a lifetime pursuit.

55:22

And to have a favor to not favorite is is not up my alley.I’m trying to square the image of the man who came up with the world top 100 with a guy who can’t name his four favorite golf courses.Is that because you were not going to rank them?It was just a group of top one hundreds.How do you?How do you How do you?That’s part of the same reason why I think the top 100 is interesting and it’s thought provoking and has interest.

55:44

But the same token there’s if I think golf dive just probably has 900 of them now over the years.So it’s just a but I think not having a favorite favorite golf course is really beneficial.I do say one thing though, if you’re the pro at a certain course, when they ask you what your favorite golf course, if you’re the pro, you say this one so.

56:08

Fair enough.Whatever I think I’ve heard people say, whatever course I’m playing right now.Well, that’s that’s probably, that’s probably true with a lot of people.The beauty of these resorts like Bandon and Pinehurst is that you can go and play a different course every time and people have ones they like better than the other.

56:25

I can understand that.But having a favorite golf course, I don’t think I think you’re better off now not having a favorite golf course.Their favorite clubs and favorite people and and favorite chemistry, but I don’t think a favorite golf course.

56:42

Well, that’s fitting that you would say that because the Ryder Cup is coming to the People’s Course, it’s going to be a good one.Well, I, I, I’m the one that named that the People’s Open and then somebody’s you did.I named it The People’s Open because it was the first publicly owned facility that hosted the US Open.

57:00

And that’s what David Phase and Jay Matolas are my reason we wanted to go there.And so I named the People’s Open.Then I got all these messages.Are you a communist?So.I didn’t realize you had named it the People’s Open.I knew that was the coinage.

57:15

I didn’t know you had coined it.Yeah, I did.So people were calling you a communist?After no, just just one guy, one guy decided to send me a message.And you said, of course I’m a communist.I’m a member of Maidstone.We’re all communists out there.Well, Reese is good talking to you.

57:33

Really looking forward to seeing your work on display at Bethpage and looking forward to the Ryder Cup.And maybe we’ll, we’ll, we’ll look for you while we’re out there.Well, one thing about Bethpage and the Ryder Cup, it’s going to be the most boisterous Ryder Cup ever.And I hope it’s close because if it’s close, it’s going to be really spectacular.

57:53

Just the noise and the excitement and the, the Open, the Open, the first Open 2002.That’s the first time you ever had a wave at AUS Open.The the the golf event.I think right.The first time you ever had a wave?

58:09

And who knows what they’ll come up with this year?Well, if it’s Scheffler against McElroy in singles and Sunday coming down the stretch with that single point on the line, I think they’ll get some eyeballs.Yeah, and I, I think Scotty Scheffler and I think Rory are just great people to have in the game.And what I love about them is they like they don’t like these wide Open Golf courses because they like to the curve their shots depending like that shot that Rory hit on the 15th hole in Augusta wouldn’t have happened without the tree being in his way.

58:38

So I think trees are very essential part of championship golf course and every big golf course.And I think an important part of the environment to not take all the trees out.I think you thin them out, but you don’t take them out.And I think they both love the trees and I think the trees they they prove that they want to they want to work the ball more.

58:56

They don’t want to just have just blow it off the tee and not worry about the shot.Yeah, I’m digressing here a little bit.But since you brought it up, is have we gone too far in the way of tree removal and golf course restorations, renovations?Absolutely, absolutely.And environmentally and from a golf standpoint.

59:13

So I think we have.How do you know when too much is too much?Tree removal has happened?How do you know when when you’ve gone?It’s just you want to thin it out so they have a shot so they can, you know, and they can accomplish shot when they’re so dense that you you can’t find your ball.

59:28

That’s that’s what you know, and a lot of courses were that way.But I think that the trees are very important element of, of Parkland golf and park parks.Have you go to Japan.They love their trees.They don’t want their trees out.I did a lot of work in Japan and, and we they, they Revere their landscape and their water bodies and that’s why their courses are so beautiful.

59:50

Interesting.Well, Reece, again, can’t thank you enough for for joining us.Really appreciate your time and thanks for all your insights on the Bethpage Black for our for our magazine coverage as well.Oh, you’re very welcome and thank you very much.Well, I hope everyone enjoyed that as much as I did.

1:00:06

Like AS jokes around in the introduction.Just did not shy away from some of those questions.And fair play to Reece.He came back with some very straight answers.I really enjoyed what he had to say about golf lists and, you know, Golf Magazine and Golf Digest and things like that.I’ll keep my thoughts to myself on those.

1:00:22

But I did find it interesting how he noticed the difference in how those lists are produced.I thought he’s interested how he talked about golf courses that might be a little bit ragged, but it’s how they connect with their members and people that play them, that make them special.And then finally that success is going back to a club where you’ve worked and they’re still happy to see you.

1:00:43

Thanks so much for listening everyone.I’ve got a great interview coming next week which hopefully you’ll all enjoy so I will see you next time.